Golden Lounge: predatory Terms, shoddy service

[Casinomeister]

Over the past few months we have received a steady stream of complaints and PABs about Golden Lounge Casino (goldenlounge.com). Sometimes it is endlessly stalled payments, other times it is canceled accounts, and lately it's been multiple cases of denied winnings.

What are the justifications for these actions? That's the thing, more often than not it's pretty iffy. I've heard everything from "they used a bot" but they can't show anyone the proof to "that player has a website we think is inappropriate".

Lately they've seized assets on the grounds that AutoPlay (readily available at all times) was used while a bonus was in play. If AutoPlay is forbidden then why is it available during bonus play? How exactly is it the player's fault for using a feature the casino offers? Oh yes, of course, it is forbidden in the T&Cs, just like pretty much everything else.

And last but not least the service from Golden Lounge is despicable: when I take an issue to them I may get an answer in a week or a month or not at all!

Any single one of these incidents is probably not sufficient grounds to issue this Warning but when you put them together it adds up to this: Golden Lounge players are at the mercy of a hostile casino management. From what I've seen they'll use anything they can to deny winnings and lock players out. Deposits are usually confiscated, per those aforementioned Terms and Conditions of course.

At this point it is unlikely that Golden Lounge will be inducted into the Rogue Pit (http://www.casinomeister.com/rogue/index.php) because most of their actions can be 'justified' under the umbrella of those T&Cs of theirs. Nevertheless it is my firm belief that players depositing at Golden Lounge are putting both their money and their trust in jeopardy.


More... (http://www.casinomeister.com/forums/casinomeister-warnings/29356-golden-lounge-predatory-terms-shoddy-service.html)

[Engineer]

Thanks for the heads up, Bryan. I won't be recommending this casino to any of my visitors.

[Kamiel]

Hi Casinomeister,

Although you are well within your rights to post what you consider as being ill behavior on the part of Golden Lounge, I would like to ensure that we are given an opportunity to respond to any allegations of wrong-doing.

Firstly, I was made aware of a number of complaints by players, and that these players had posted on your forum. However, to the best of my knowledge Golden Lounge has honored the cashins of these players, and they have been paid. Have any of these players posted any updates stating that they have been paid, or that they are still awaiting payment?

Secondly, Golden Lounge representatives, including myself, have sent through numerous requests to your forum (email on website) requesting for further discussions into issues raised, as well as your guidance on what should be changed as a means to becoming an accredited and respected casino on your forum. To date, no response has been forthcoming.

We had also extended an invitation to meet with you in London, where we attended the CAP Euro event recently, as a means to resolve any issues and to further discuss what you/players may deem as "predatory or unfair terms". Unfortunately, no response was received, and as such, no meeting was held.

I am not here to paint us with the "innocence brush". We are not perfect, and mistakes will be made. However, these can only be resolved with mutual discussion. What I would suggest is that any current outstanding player issues are sent to me at kamiel@goldenassociate.com, and I will investigate them, such that I can confirm if they are indeed still outstanding or if they have been resolved, and what the resolution was. I will personally attend to the resolution of any outstanding issues, to the best of my ability.

In addition, as a means to resolve the issue of "predatory terms", I would like to request further discussion on which terms you do feel are predatory and unfair, and I can assure you that we will work with you in amending these to be both player and casino friendly.

I look forward to hearing from you, and to us resolving all issues that may show negatively upon the image of Golden Lounge.

Kind regards,

Kamiel Mahomed
Affiliate Program Manager

www.goldenassociate.com

[Spearmaster]

Hi Kamiel!

Welcome! Good to see you here.

The best way of reaching Casinomeister is, of course, to send him a private message on the forum - I haven't checked his email addresses there so I have no idea if anything is wrong.

As for CAP Euro - CM was only there for a few minutes as we were meeting up to go to Bath Spa and the Cheddar Gorge... I don't think he had any meetings at CAP Euro at all, except for one which I had hastily arranged for shortly before our departure.

I haven't studied the issues with Golden Lounge that carefully, as Casinomeister and MaxD usually handle those. But as for predatory terms, you can see one highlighted in the post above - the banning of Autoplay, which is of course patently ridiculous - either you disable it, or you permit it, you don't allow it to be activated and then claim a breach of T&Cs.

I hope you will participate more here and at Casinomeister - I am confident that you of all people can get things done - but you do have to realize that some things need drastic improvement, you can probably start by going over the T&Cs yourself, and then checking support response times. Better to be proactive rather than reactive, after all.

[MaxD]

Hello all, and hello Kamiel,

My name is Max Drayman. I handle the Complaints side of things over at Casinomeister and answer directly to Bryan on all things Casinomeister-related.

As the Complaints guy over there I'm the one who issued that Warning against Golden Lounge. I won't step in on any discussions you're having with Bryan on this but I did want to say that the decision to post the Warning was not taken lightly.

I have been working on four formal complaints -- at Casinomeister we call them Pitch-A-Bitch or PAB -- regarding Golden Lounge since early January. I have been dealing with John Baily, Security Manager (security@goldenlounge.com).

(Please note that PAB issues are handled privately at Casinomeister: at no time is any of it visible or available to the general membership. The only parties involved are the player, the casino representative(s), Bryan and I. Only Bryan and I can see and read the information related to the complaint.)

Of the four we have seen one successfully resolved. Of the others some have been dragging on, some are relatively new.

My problem with the outstanding issues is that John seems to take the broadest possible interpretation of your Terms and Conditions when it comes to blocking payments to the players.

Example 1: player was cashing out, got caught in a routine security check, and was denied all his monies on the grounds that he had many (198?!) accounts across the Microgaming Network. John's position was that no player should have that many accounts and on the face of it I agree with him.

However, when I pressed the issue it turned out that (a) the player had never registered under a false name nor attempted to use falsified identification, (b) the player had used only a very few email addresses in all these registrations, (c) the player had not registered multiple times at Golden Lounge, and (d) the player had not "abused" any Golden Lounge bonuses.

In other words John was fingering this particular player because of what he may or may not have done at other casinos, there was no direct proof of anything other than the large number of registrations and absolutely nothing had been done wrong at Golden lounge.

I should add that getting that information on this case took over six weeks! Suffice it to say that John is loath to share that kind of information, on this case or any other.

That said I will say that in my opinion John is probably right, this player probably would eventually try to pull something at Golden Lounge. But "probably" isn't good enough. From my perspective unless he had specific grounds to step on this player he owes the player his money. What he does after he pays him is clearly his business, but the money was fairly won -- by John's own admission I might add -- and is owed.

Example 2: player tries to cash out (no problems to date) and is denied. I believe that again, his monies were confiscated. I heard back from John and his grounds were, among other things, that the player had a website where he posted about advantage play at casinos. John says outright cheating was also posted at the site but I didn't see that.

In any case the point is this: since when is it John's job to police the web? If he decided he didn't like the player because of his hobbies then pay him the monies you owe him and say goodbye. No one would have any arguments with that because it's clearly the casino's right to say who they do and do not want to have playing at their casino.

However, if the player has been allowed to deposit, and played fairly, and won fairly, then the money is due him regardless of what he may post on his website, or what he reads in the toilet or who he votes for. Those things are basically none of John's business, at least not insofar as the player's past activity at the casino is concerned.

Example 3: (actually a continuation of Example 2) John says that another reason for busting the player was that he used AutoPlay to grind through his WR, again contrary to the T&Cs. Like Spear said, if AutoPlay is available to player's then it's fair for them to assume that it's okay to use it. It is not okay to bust them and confiscate their money when they do, regardless of what is buried in your T&Cs.

This comes down to a simple matter of trust: the players may or may not read your legalese but when they sit down to the games it is reasonable for them to assume that if your software presents a button and invites it to be pushed that they will not be robbed and kicked to the curb for doing so.

In all these cases and more John cites the Terms and Conditions which, yes, I believe are written to reinforce John's kind of preemptive banning of players and withholding of their balances. If you and Bryan decide that you'd like more information on this from me I'd be happy to oblige. Until then I'll assume that you guys are discussing it off-line and are doing fine without me involved.

I hope this clarifies why the Warning was posted and gives some indication of what needs to be addressed if that Warning is to be reconsidered and possibly withdrawn (and yes, we do withdraw them if the reason for posting them in the first place is no longer valid).

Regards,
Max Drayman
Casinomeister.com, Player Grievance Manager

[Kamiel]

Hi MaxD,

Thanks for responding. Apologies for my delayed response, but for some reason I did not get the post notifications, else it would have been sooner.

I fully understand why you, players and other affiliates feel as you do about the issues raised. I have sent mails to Bryan, but I have not had any response thus far. Thus, it is fine for you and I to handle this from here on in.

I would like to see resolution to all issues raised, as quickly as possible. I will thus be your point of contact on these issues, and any new ones (which I hope do not arise) in future.

I can confirm that the casino and bonus terms are being revised at this time, to move away from being predatory in any way and more in line with most Microgaming casinos. The revised terms will be made live in the next few days.

I will personally look into these 2 player issues, and I will advise you on what I find. I am committed to resolving these issues, with your help, and I will be in touch shortly. It may take me a few days to do a comprehensive investigation, but you have my assurance that I will be in touch with you soon.

Thanks again for getting back to me, and I hope we can get these issues behind us soon, and once and for all.

Kind regards,

Kamiel Mahomed
Affiliate Program Manager

www.goldenassociate.com